Are we God?

Are we God?
Many religions posit that God created the universe and then claim to have exclusive revelations as to what He expects of us. However, it seems to me that the creator-created dichotomy is artificial and even if we posit that God created it all, it is obvious that the one thing He could not have created would be life, for the simple reason that God is always alive - a dead God is no God. Creation could have started only with life. If there was no life, there would have been no creation. If life ends, then it ought to have had a beginning. So if there was a time when there was no life, life would never have come about. Thus, we can safely say that life is eternal, without beginning and end. And since we have life in us, we can logically say that we have the eternal within us. Hence, when we die, life within us does not die. It will be interesting to note that there are religions which posit that we are not the body that dies, but we are the very life that does not die. As there cannot be two eternals, eternal life is eternal God.Therefore, at least according to certain religions, we are God.

Angelfire

I dont know what religions your talking about but I absolutely support the assertions.Isnt it great? Life is eternal. Therefore we must have always been.Good post.Peace

Super Universe

If many religions claim revelation from God then it's not all that exclusive, is it?We do have eternal life within us but that does not necessarily mean that it is us. Think of a vehicle moving through a city, at any time the driver can stop the car and get out. We are God, we just forgot.

BruceDLimber
Are we God?Not even close!Bruce

YmirGF

Well, one might think that, but I couldn't possibly comment on its validity. My thinking is, why limit the reality of self to the relatively trivial god concepts of theists? Frankly speaking, I do not feel a need to hem reality in by placing artificial boundaries on Reality. I am far more interested in realms of actuality that are rather beyond the kindergarten theology of man. My assertion is that when the human animal divests itself of its relatively meaningless god-concepts, after awhile, it might actually begin to appreciate the essence of what it is and how that forms the reality they experience.

angellous_evangellous

If I were God, I would deserve to die.

tomspug

You are putting God in the same boat that we are. If God is infinite, what is life to him? He wouldn't be dead or alive. Those are human conditions which you are trying to project on God. The whole concept of God is that he is, has been, and always will be.

harleydavidson

to k venupogal...hi ,read your 11/07 post,there are some statements you made I don't understand. You say" god cld not have created life because he is alive",,somewhere the sense of that doesn't make sense!!lol. I look fwd to your explanation. Now you can say life is eternal,in a general way ,but specifically individual lives are not necessarily eternal,,people die ,now if god wanted to do something to make a life eternal he certainly cld [and does]. Our lives are not eternal as they had a beginning,that which is eternal has no beginning,nor does it have an end ,webster sez that eternal means without beginning or end......harley85

What I meant when saying, "God could not have created life because He is alive" is that there could not have been any time when God did not have life, therefore there was no need for Him to create it. About your point of God making a life eternal, that's not necessary because life is already eternal. What dies when we die is our body. "We are not the body" is an ancient teaching which comes to this conclusion by seeing that even if we, for instance, loose our hands or legs we remain ourselves because what was lost was "my hands", not me. Who is this who is saying "my". This of course is the "I". Who then is the "I"? Not the body, which only belongs to the "I" and is not the "I". Thus goes the trail to the discovery that I am God, where God is posited as the ultimate or the substratum of everything. And this God is life eternal, total consciousness, absolute bliss and all that.

Popeyesays
God is the Creator, I( am not the Creator. Instead I am a Creature. God is not a Creature.So, am I God? No.Regards,Scott

logician
God could be a 97 camaro.

Willamena

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeyesays
God is the Creator, I( am not the Creator. Instead I am a Creature. God is not a Creature.So, am I God? No.Regards,Scott

No offense, but I find much more comfort in the idea that I am co-creator, with me and God both creation. For me, at the moment, there could not be a "God" in any other context.

Popeyesays

And I find comfort in the fact that God created me for a purpose, and I am a loved creature. I don't need to "be" God.Also, I think that imagining that I am a "co-God" to be absolutely ridiculous and a delusion of vast proportion.No offense intended, of course. I hope none is taken.Regards,Scott

I came across the following poem by Emily Bronte (of Wuthering Heights fame) who penned it a few months before her death. I thought I would share it with readers here.

No coward soul is mine,

No trembler in the world’s storm-troubled sphere:

I see Heaven’s glories shine,

And Faith shines equal, arming me from Fear.

O God within my breast,

Almighty, ever-present Deity!

Life, that in me has rest,

As I, undying Life, have power in Thee!

Vain are the thousand creeds

That move men’s hearts: unutterably vain;

Worthless as withered weeds,

Or idlest froth amid the boundless main,

To waken doubt in one

Holding so fast by Thy infinity,

So surely anchored on

The steadfast rock of Immortality.

With wide-embracing love

Thy Spirit animates eternal years,

Pervades and broods above,

Changes, sustains, dissolves, creates, and rears.

Though earth and moon were gone,

And suns and universes ceased to be,

And Thou wert left alone,

Every existence would exist in Thee.

There is not room for Death,

Nor atom that his might could render void:

Thou–thou art Being and Breath,

And what thou art may never be destroyed.

methylatedghosts

I particularly like that bit. Frubals. Unfortunately i must spread around some more so take a raincheck

---------------------------

autonomous1one1

Quote:
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
.....Thus goes the trail to the discovery that I am God,

........upon direct realization of which comes Enlightenment.

methylatedghosts
I don't think it's as much the "discovery that I am God", but the "re-membering".

I think you've put the whole thesis even better.

Originally Posted by Willamena
What is Enlightenment?

I think it is a bright word expressing the ultimate knowing, the final awakening.

Super Universe
Are we God? Yes, except for the athiests.

UltraViolet Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Universe
Are we God?Yes, except for the athiests.

I somehow don't think that the christians are God either.So if we are all the "re-membering" of God...all of the one fabric that IS in fact God...then the athiests should cease to exist as reflected by their own belief...and christians?...if they embrace the truth...they are thrown into hell by the power of their own beliefs.It is my belief that we all eventually get what we believe.(at the very least we SEE/or don't see what we believe)So who knows.Maybe that's just me?Because it's what I believe?

Sola'lor

I agree. God did not create life. All life has existed in some from for eternity. However I wouldn't say we are God. But rather we are gods, baby ones, not yet developed into the full version.
__________________
"I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the streets. All I know is that first you've got to get mad. You've got to say, 'I'M A HUMAN BEING GOD DAMNIT, MY LIFE HAS VALUE!'"
--Howard Beale

Quote:
autonomous1one1
Greetings Willamena. Let me provide an explanation 'from below' - that is, within the conventional subject-object view of the world. Enlightenment is a breakthrough awakening where the being realizes identity with the Source of all being. Many of my posts in RF have used this type of description but perhaps elaboration would help clarify.Many years ago when studying this very breakthrough experience, I wrote a short composition in which various expressions of the experience were written down. The composition was titled "A State of Being." I dug up some of that ancient writing and here is an extract of many of the expressions captured from the works of different individuals:"The ‘State’ as used herein is the State of Being in which the human becomes united with God through the realization of oneness with God. The i, or finite human being, realizes (or becomes) the I, the infinite being; i and Thou become the i-Thou or the ego and Thou become the ego-Thou; we are merged with the Supreme, sunken into it and one with it in which the Supreme is to be known only as one with ourselves, center coinciding with center; beholder and Beheld become one; in our self-seeing There, the self is seen as belonging to that order, or rather we are merged into that self in us which has the quality of that order and knowing of the self is restored to its purity; being becomes united with the Transcendent of being; one with the Whole or union with the One; union of the mind with the whole of nature; the human who lives in the ideal identifies himself with what is spiritual in all spirits, the Absolute Spirit; being united with Being-itself; thought realizing itself as part of the Absolute; the human in unity with the Ground-of-being; one with that above subject-object structure in which the human ‘subject’ and its ‘object’ become one above subjectivity and objectivity; the unity of being with the Word; one with the unconditional; one with the eternal; the finite self is lost in the infinite in which the Self is found; existence is united with essence; union with the ultimate; realization of oneness of the fundamental in man with the most Fundamental and the fundamental in all ‘else’; the human realizes one with the universal substance, the ultimate, the identity, of spirit and nature, the universe, the cosmic whole, the value creating process, the progressive integration, the absolute spirit, and the cosmic person; the achievement of Nirvana or reunion with Brahma or the state of perfect blessedness achieved by the extinction of individual existence and by the absorption of the soul into the supreme spirit; and lastly, entering the Kingdom of God. All of these, in my opinion, are expressions of different realizations or the State or awareness of the possibility of the State. These expressions come from the few throughout the ages who have either realized the State or nearly done so; some more perfectly in the State than others. .....These statements are expressions ‘from below’; that is, from the finite which unites with something greater than itself. Such statements ‘from below’ can be misleading in that they imply separateness, but they are necessarily that way from the human with ‘at first’ awareness of the State or when conveyance is attempted to a human not in the State. However, once union is realized fully these expressions could very well be written or understood in another fashion ‘from above’. Thus, as examples, one might express the State as: in man the absolute rises to self-consciousness; the Fundamental through its created manifestation recognizes itself in that manifestation; and God reunites with himself and becomes all in all. ..... " In RF I might write something like 'the One overcomes differentiation within to reunite through human consciousness' or as Zenzero suggests, 'seer and that seen merge.' Hope these many ways of describing an experience that I think of as Enlightenment will add to the clarity rather than the confusion.

What you've said is it. Moreover, this whole process of getting into our essence (by bringing the restless mind into a state of restfulness) is not just about getting a new kind of thrilling experience. It is more about continuing a seemingly normal, calm and ordinary life in the most blissful of manner, unbeknownst to anyone, except when we chose to express ourselves for no particular reason. In such a living, the like-dislike dichotomy drops off - you simply dance through the different facets of life's possibilities in sheer bliss. In other words, this whole pursuit of our inner life is not merely an academic adventure. It is a life-renewing journey. To such a person what is day to others is night to him and what is night to the others is day to him.

Is God Conscious?

Sunstone

Is God Conscious?
Assuming god exists, are there any grounds for supposing that god is conscious? If so, what are those grounds?

God is consciousness and in His play of consciousness, He moves from the range of total consciousness to total unconsciousness but He is at no time anything other than consciousness in its varieties of expressions.

Resurrection of Christ

K.Venugopal

Interpreting miracles
Jesus Christ did not die on the cross. He was unconscious and got up after 3 days. He eventually died after 40 days. There is an ancient Hindu story that says a young husband was rekindled into life by the God of Death after his bride's stout intercession. In both, cases of near-death experience interpreted as miracle to convey higher spiritual truths.

sandy whitelinger

Making up as you go along is fun isn't it?

When life itself is a miracle, do we need to enhance it with stories?

angellous_evangellous

The same reason we enhance it with art, music, and literature.

New - Hi to all

Gnostic Witch
Religion: Gnostic Witch
Title:Gnostic....umm...witch...


New -- Hi to all!
Hi everyone,My name is Tara. I love religious conversations and debate. This is my first time here.I'm a mom to 4 kids, wife to one husband, and person to 2 dogs, 4 guinea pigs, 1 rabbit, 1 snake and a bunch of saltwater fish.I'm an Gnostic Witch with agnostic leanings. Funnnnnnn!I look forward to getting to know you all Tara
__________________
“What monstrosities would walk the streets were some people’s faces as unfinished as their minds.”
Eric Hoffer

Welcome aboard, Tara. RF is like Noah's Ark, only we have more than a pair of every type amongst us. Please tell us about being a Gnostic Witch.

Hole in the Heart

Captain Civic

Hole in the Heart
I've been seeing a lot of topics about the power of prayer, etc. lately and how everyone seems to want documented proof, etc. I had a specific question I wanted to ask, so I won't derail any other threads.There was a 17 year old guy that goes to my church that this year developed a hole in the heart. Now from what I understand, this is a very serious and debilitating condition. He was hospitalised for a while. Our church/youth group was told of this, and naturally we were asked to pray. Perhaps because this young guy is known by most of the youth, and is the little brother of a girl most of us a good mates with, the youth group decided to take on more sacrificial aspects of prayer. Things such as praying in a large group constantly for a long period of time, fasting, etc.Well, a few weeks later this young guy was rechecked, and the hole had completely vanished. Now I don't know much about this condition, but from what I know it doesn't tend to just fix itself.Now my question; although not documented or verified by anyone else but myself, is a hole in the heart a condition that can just fix itself?

Intriguing. What has the hospital he was admitted to have to say? I'll have to check into that one.If they substantiate that he was cured by prayers, wouldn't it be something like proof that prayers can substitute medical treatment? *shrug* That's kinda what I'm asking.

UltraViolet

Well all the hospital could "substantiate" is that, there was a hole...and now their isn't.I myself was healed by a paradigm shift(which included a new way of "praying")when nothing the medical profession,or the health food/alternative industryoffered,did me any good.So shall we say that everyone should seek a paradigm shiftinstead of medical treatment?hmmmm.

Isn't Islam and idol worshiping religion?

Isn't Islam an idol worshiping religion?
I contend that Islam is an idol worshiping religion. When I say this, it would be surmised that I am out to create mischief because it is universally understood that Islam is dead against idol worship. But I do not level this charge to taunt Muslims out of any spite. I love Muslims. They are as human as anyone else. My problem is with the claim of Islam that it does not believe in idol worship.In fact all worship is idol worship. It is not possible to worship except that worship be idol worship. The condition of idol worship is that there be a worshipper and a thing worshiped. Muslims might say that there is no “thing” that a Muslim worships. That what they worship is only the unimaginable power called Allah who created the universe. Be it so, except that they have a need to reduce that unimaginable power to a word “Allah”.

~Amin~

Allah this word, encompasses all that Allah has revealed of Himself.

If Allah the word can encompass all that Allah has revealed of Himself, then why can't a solid idol do the same of God for the idol-worshipper?

Lol, Lol, Lol, Lol ,Lol, Lol, Lol,If i know get a pen and paper and write Allah it doesnt meanGod is IN THAT WORD, its the meaning of the word, which describesthe way we know God.

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A human canexpress with his mouth what he can conceive by his mind, we cannot even conceivethe creation let alone the creator, so we CANNOT truly express the Greatness ofGod when we say He is the Greatest in words, this doesn't reduce God its the language He created, and is sufficient for Him.

A sound idol, I might say and the Muslim will say I am merely quibbling to provoke.However, my deeper reason to declare Muslims to be the idol worshipers they would rather die than admit is that Islam considers Allah, the creator, as separate from His creation. This means that when we, the creation or creature want to connect with Allah, we have perforce to turn outwards – ever so symbolically seen when the common Muslim raises his vision upwards when he wishes to thank Allah in ordinary conversation. Of course in formal prayers Muslims turn towards Mecca – which becomes the central point to which they direct their prayers.

No we don't direct our prayers to the Kaaba, the Kaaba is a DIRECTION of prayer not an object of worship, this basically shows an organization within the creators creation.

Add to this the fact that the central point contains a huge cube structure, which if the Muslims can get near enough they would lavishly kiss,

your mistaken the prophet did kiss something symbolically to remind us of the next life, but NOT a cube, ill leave that for you to investigate,if i kiss my wife does that mean I'm worshiping her? i think you exaggerated a little with the word lavish.

completes the case that the Muslims are indeed idol worshippers.

Over all I'm very happy for your interest in this issue i pray that to GODthat everyone was like that.

The case becomes all the more apparent when we consider that there is a successful ancient teaching called Adviata which even today continues to be the undercurrent of the oldest religion in the world – Hinduism. Advaita says that God is actually what we essentially are and is not a phenomenon separate from us whom we have to seek for outside and idolize concretely, as Hindu idol-worshippers do - or turn into a faith, as Muslims do.

Sunstone
An interesting point of view. Not sure I agree with you, but interesting. Welcome to the Forum!
not4me
No, Islam isn't an idol worshiping religion. Welcome!
Sunstone
How are you defining "idolatry"?

MidnightBlue
I checked yes because I think that's the correct answer, but I can't imagine any reason for singling Islam out from the other Abrahamic religions. In my view, the idols we make in our minds are every bit as deceptive and illusory as idols made of metal or stone, and almost always more so. I think Islam is idolatrous because Muslims fall into the delusion that the god they imagine corresponds to the Eternal. I think the same applies to all the Abrahamic religions, not just Islam.

Salaam
lol... no, Islam isnt an idol worshipping religion, I think you may have it confused with catholic religion.but anyway, the reason why Muslism faceMekka while praying is because Ibrahim(pbuh) built the House of Mekka under God Himself's orders, God sent down a black stone fro mthe heavens to the exact spot that Ibrahim was to build the House at, and this i swhere the black stone came from, scientists have indeed confirmed that teh black stone which sits at the House of God is indeed an out of this world object, it is from space, a meteorite.and to call God Allah, is much more God;ly than anything else, becasue if you knew anything of history, you would understand that Jesus(pbuh) HIMSELF called God by teh name of "Allaha", now was Jesus an idol worshipper for callign God "Allaha"?Jesus called God Allaha, Muslism call God Allah, lol... do you see the resemblance smart guy?anyway, that is where the word Allah even came from, the Aramaic word for God, "Allaha", it has nothing to do with ido lworship, infact, Arab Christians call God "Allah" as well.

UnityNow101
The black stone in the Kaaba isn't worshipped by Muslims so far as I know...Muslims simply worship God, the Unseen Creator of the Universe. If they are commiting idolatry, than so are all of the other religions of the world. They seem to be the one abrahamic faith, along with Judaism, which strictly forbids anything that may be seen by others as idol worship..But interesting point of view. I myself am not very knowledgeable concerning the black stone in the Kaaba, so maybe a Muslim could clarify this issue for you.

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Idolatry may be defined as supposing that a particular object, concrete or imagined, would intercede to help us or soothe us when we direct our supplications towards it. As per this definition, all religions extant are idolatrous. It is only when we come to the understanding that we are indeed the God we worship that idolatry ceases, because then there is no supplication but only an awakening to the truth.

Reverend Rick

"may be defined". There is no dispute there, but a loose interpretation like that could apply to just about any religion. Welcome to the forum. If I may, I have two questions for you.1. Why single out the Muslim faith for this discussion?2. What religion, (if any) are you?

1. I was not singling out Islam or anything like that. It just happened to be the subject of what I wanted to write.2. As a Hindu (by which I mean the tradition I was born into), telling you what my religion is is a bit difficult. You see, in the Hindu culture, you have all the freedom to choose any particular path of worship, belief or technique towards God or divinity. Being thus given the freedom, I am simply convincing myself that I am perfect and my circumstances are perfect and whenever I feel otherwise (which was always in the beginning and a lot less nowadays) I meditate (in my own way) to see what I think is the reality. So you can say, as far as identity goes, I am a Hindu. But from the point of view of the ultimate Hindu teachings, identity is the very antithesis of spirituality. Therefore I would say that in passing I am a Hindu, but ultimately I am no one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lava
if somene you loved was dead and if you had his belonging that doesnot make you a idol worshipper. you only look at his belonging and remember his existance. there is a difference between this and asking help from objects.

That which is not you, the subject, is an object. Depending on the object we choose to worship, we have our different religions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketman
Allah and it's aramaic predecessor is a descriptor, not a proper name.

You are right. It simply cannot be a proper name because that would be anthropomorphizing our concept of God and it would surely be idolatry. But even as a descriptor, it is our usage to describe our concept of the absolute. And as various are our languages and cultures, we use various words to denote the absolute - God, Allah, Ishwar etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightBlue
In my view, the idols we make in our minds are every bit as deceptive and illusory as idols made of metal or stone

I would say that idols, whether made of stones or of our imagination, are of a kind; but I wouldn't say that as such idols are deceptive or illusory. Idols are aids for us to understand the ultimate. It would become deceptive and illusory only if we are unable to eventually drop the idols and get to the ultimate. Which is why they say that you may be born in a temple but do not die in a temple.

"Even as the fingers of the two hands are equal, so are human beings equal to one another. No one has any right, nor any preference to claim over another. You are brothers"~Prophet Muhammed(PBUH)~

This, quoted by UnityNow101, is refuted by many verses in the Quran which distinctly point to a different fate for the believers (in Islam) and non-believers (in Islam). The brotherhood is restricted to the brotherhood of Islamic believers.

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy me, the sinner."

Quoted by Mister Emu. That we are sinners is a thought that is the cause of all man's problems. This breeds a sense of lack. And to make up for that lack we keep doing endless things. There is an ancient teaching that says "Tvam Amritasya Putraha", meaning - you are children of immortality. We would free ourselves from all conflicts within our mind if we begin seeing perfection in all our actions as well as our circumstances.

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jamaesi
Looks like the OPer is woefully ignorant of the Sufi way. Oh well. I see the OP's pushing of Hinduism... that seems to be the point of this thread, Islam added as an afterthought.

Reverend Rick

I still cannot understand why he singled out Muslims. His loose definition could apply to any religion.

penguino
Maybe thats because he didn't know of others! Your knowledge cannot be applied to him, he knows one thing and you know another, doesen't mean he can debate about something he is unaware of.

Are religious conversions pernicious?

K.Venugopal

Are religious conversions pernicious?
I believe that religious conversions are pernicious because the understanding underlying conversions is, “My religion is right and your religion is false”. If we see that there are many ways to reach God, then converting to a religion to learn that there is one and only one way to reach God and that is through that particular religion is a bit of a let down. This is further so if that particular religion insists that we abandon our previous religion, lock, stock and barrel. Then it makes us fanatics. Therefore, religious conversions are pernicious. The correct approach would be not conversions but acceptance. “I accept your religion, of which you have been good enough to teach me, as yet another way to God.”

cardero

It is quite possible that if one is interested, that there would be many ways in which GOD could reach the individual.

nutshell

You've created a false dichotomy. The problem you pose does not exist if you convert and say "This works for me and what you do works for you."

.. and therefore, because both ways work - one for you and one for me - I accept that there is more than one way to God. This approach is the approach of acceptance, not the approach of "my way is the only true way for everybody". Properly speaking, therefore, it ought to be called "acceptance" and not "conversion".

sandy whitelinger

Pernicious means to be injurious or destructive. I fail to see that you have made this point.

When you are part of the conversion mission, you are more interested in membership targets than spiritual growth. Then religion becomes mass exposition whereas it ought to be the unfoldment of our deeper-self in quite contemplation. Considering how we become more of activists than pilgrims, conversion changes the texture of religion. How pernicious, I would say.

I still don't see that you have made a case for this being either injurious or destructive or to state in what manner it is thus.

madhatter85

then go be Bahai', don't they teach that all religion is true?

Mister Emu

Of course, for those who believe in one truth, growth in a spirituality not of their God would be pernicious...
Mike182
so you want a tolerant model of religion that is completely intolerant of absolutism?

The credo ought to be, "Live and let live."

Mr. Peanut
Hi!Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.Cheers!

Krishna said, Abandon everything and take refuge in me. I shall save you from all troubles.When spiritual masters say "I", they are indicating life itself.

Mr. Peanut

Hi!Speaking of Jesus, the Bible says: Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

What's in a name ...

Mr. Peanut

Everything.
Mister Emu

Quote:
If we see that there are many ways to reach God

And if we don't see it that way?

Conversions.

=============================

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunstone
Do you think that can be a dangerous message that could lead to fanaticism and spiritual blindness, even if true?

This saying is probably what makes the missionaries zealous about conversion - hasn't Jesus said the heathens have no choice ...But I do not see it that way at all - it is an exclamation of Jesus' supreme spiritual confidence, where "I" is no longer the "I" of the ego, but "I" of supreme consciousness.

===================================

Guitar's Cry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Peanut
Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Krishna said, Abandon everything and take refuge in me. I shall save you from all troubles.

These both work because both provide structures--symbolic paradigms--through which reality can be viewed and interpreted in a way that "saves" or "protects" the individual from existential malaise.Advertising (proselytizing) for conversion is simply the belief that their is only one way. It's similar to saying "Pepsi is the only good cola!" It is forgetting that individuals have different tastes, be it soda or spirituality.Pernicious conversion would be forced conversion. The Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the burning of religious idols in various parts of the world; that's pernicious.

=============================

Mister Emu
K. Venugopal,Would you consider it pernicious if one were to convert from believing in one truth to believing in many?

Brilliant question. The principle ought to be, live and let live. We can be as we want to be, believing in one truth or many. But let us not deny others their sacred space. This denial of sacred space is what is pernicious and this is what conversions that are planned with targets and zones of 'harvest' are all about. It is more organizational and less spiritual. God and Devil were walking along the beach. The Devil asks, "What did that man ahead pick up? God: Truth. He's going to be finished with you. Devil: No, I don't think so. I am going to make him organize it.

madhatter85

I did enjoy this post. Satan is the father of confusion, he doesn't want you to put things in their proper order because if you know the truth it is harder for him to maintain his grasp on you. so he will try to pervert the truth to keep you confused.

sandy whitelinger

I'll assume that, acording to your way of percieving, that going to school is pernicious as well. After all, educators change people's minds.

Not at all, teaching is indeed the noble profession. But you better watch out if you are going to send your child to a school which says only what it teaches is true and there is no education beyond this school.

Ministry is a noble profession as well. you just object to the teaching of religion and refuse to accept that the idea of trying to convert another to one's way of thought is as common as sunshine. Have you ever watched a commercial?

Pernicious is only when you deny sacred space to others. You would have been wary of commercials in communist regimes of old, where only government stuff were peddled.

You're floating around now. Where is it that people who espouse their belief to another are denying sacred space (whater the heck that means) to someone else. Or for that matter that it is pernicious (which means to be dangerous or injurious to, a definition that you continue to skirt)?

I hope what I am saying will get clarified as we go along. I have all along talked of religious conversion. That is, the conversion of a person who has a set of believes about God to another set of believes about God. This activity goes on because the 'converter' believes that only his religion is true and convinces the converted so. Seems quite harmless enough. But at least now, after so many thousands of years of experience with religions, let us accept that all religions are manifestations of man's attempt to discover God. Is it difficult to accept that all religions are valid and choose whichever religion we wish to, instead of having missionaries exploit weaknesses with material help and preach that unless you pray to Jesus you are damned? I think this approach is pernicious and I use the word in its original sense – evil. Allowing for sacred space is allowing all religions to flourish.

sandy whitelinger

And that is the flaw in your theory. Oh, by the way, I'll not accept that.

I may not agree with your reasons to reject what I say, but I shall defend with my life your right to reject whatever I say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
I think this approach is pernicious and I use the word in its original sense – evil.

sandy whitelinger

And where do you get this from?

Meaning of 'evil' for pernicious? Please try Dictionary.com

Wow, relying on obsolete meanings to use a perjurative because you can't make your point with words in common usage. Weak, baby, verrrry weak.

Dear Sandy, I got the following entry from WikiAnswers. Entry appears to have been made in 2007. Making a pernicious comeback? But believe me, I think the word as I have meant is apt for the type of conversions I have in mind.How do you use the word 'pernicious' in a sentence?First answer by R Harrison. Last edit by R Harrison. Contributor trust: 70 [recommend contributor]. Question popularity: 6 [recommend question]Answer The storm was very pernicious (Destructive) in strength. John was a very pernicious (Spiteful) person. He also had a very pernicious (Evil) nature. His words were pernicious (Malicious) in their content.

Wow, you and R. Harrison use obsolete meanings. You have a comrade. And who in the hell is R. Harrison?Now, how would I use pernicious in a sentence. Your pernicious use of the word pernicious is misplaced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pariah
The right to convert and be converted falls under the category of the freedom to think as one does, if it does not harm others directly (pre-meditated murder/harm comes to mind of those things that should be looked into before it happens), or as it is usually specified, freedom of religion.If the missionaries have resorted to false tactics, such as passing out food and money or violence at its peak, then we have poor ethics.

I quite agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardero
It is quite possible that if one is interested, that there would be many ways in which GOD could reach the individual.

Sure.

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sandy whitelinger

Quote:
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
I think this approach is pernicious and I use the word in its original sense – evil.

Ok, just for fun I'll accede to your definition. So, are religious conversions evil? I think that position is full of crap.

The position that my religion alone is true and others' are crap is based on a lack of education, which is pardonable. But building an army of missionaries to convert the 'heathens' is pernicious. Missionaries are good folks. It’s only their activity of conversion that is pernicious. To educate the missionaries that there is truth in other religions might be an antidote to their pernicious activity. As Jesus said, hate not the sinner but the sin. May I quote Mahatma Gandhi on conversions:I disbelieve in the conversion of one person by another. My effort should never to be to undermine another's faith. This implies belief in the truth of all religions and, therefore, respect for them. It implies true humility. (Young India: April 23, 1931)It is impossible for me to reconcile myself to the idea of conversion after the style that goes on in India and elsewhere today. It is an error which is perhaps the greatest impediment to the world's progress toward peace. Why should a Christian want to convert a Hindu to Christianity? Why should he not be satisfied if the Hindu is a good or godly man? (Harijan: January 30, 1937)I believe that there is no such thing as conversion from one faith to another in the accepted sense of the word. It is a highly personal matter for the individual and his God. I may not have any design upon my neighbour as to his faith which I must honour even as I honour my own. Having reverently studied the scriptures of the world I could no more think of asking a Christian or a Musalman, or a Parsi or a Jew to change his faith than I would think of changing my own. (Harijan: September 9, 1935)I am not interested in weaning you from Christianity and making you Hindu, and I do not relish your designs upon me, if you had any, to convert me to Christianity. I would also dispute your claim that Christianity is the only true religion. (Harijan: June 3, 1937)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor
Obviously I'd say..........NO!But for people who are under the guise of tolerance, progressiveness, and all those other fancy guises they use, it's seen as oppressive because they want to do what they want to do.

There is nothing wrong in doing what we want to do provided we do not transgress others' sacred space.

Wearing my Hijab around family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly
I can't wear my hijab around friends and family because they would know that I am a Muslim if I did.

If you are living in liberal democratic societies, your switching religion and dress style would not be grudged by anyone and you would have legal protection. But if you were living in Saudi Arabia (the citadel and bastion of Islam) and a Muslim there, you would probably be arrested if you were to convert to Christianity or Hinduism and display your new religious enthusiasm openly.

Laila

A fair point made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laila
Dear Holly,I suggest you think about the bigger issues around living your faith and being a good muslim, rather than get stuck on a dress code. When your family see you transformed as you truly live your faith they will be enrolled.

Great advice, Laila. True religion is not in the externals.

Peace Religion is both internal and external.
It is a transformation within. Look at Mohammad himself. He lived a magnificent, bold life and lived as he pleased and had Allah to support him all the way. (Moral: God's for those who do their own thing.) The same was with Jesus - the man who said "Let the dead bury the dead". And the earliest hero of them all - Krishna, with his 16,008 wives, routing the villains in war by merely advising his General etc. etc. It is we, 'followers' of all religions, who are freaks, who come out as worms when compared with those titans. I say, be a Mohammad, be a Jesus, be a Krishna. Let's not follow them, Let's follow them to attain happiness and success in both this life and the life to come.
let's be them and be better than them. Never can we be equal to them or better than them.The Prophets of God are the best creatures on the earth and that's why they were chosen.Let us follow today to lead tomorrow. Believe me, Mohammad, Jesus and Krishna - all are truly dead and gone. Let us learn from their lives and the lives of the best that were amongst us. Let us belong to no one but to ourselves. We belong to God and to Him we shall return.
Let us not be caught up with dress codes. Let us know, ultimately, came we nude and go we nude. Religion is Modesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous
***MOD ADVISORY***Please keep in mind that this is a Sunni forum, and only Sunnis can post their opinions here.Thanks,A_E

I would have liked to just say "Sorry for trespassing. I hereby withdraw." But I wish to add that I belong to no religion and I accept all religions as my human heritage. Nevertheless, civil society (or RF) cannot function unless it follows the laws in vogue. If we disagree with the law we may protest. But we have no right to be lawless. Saying thus, I withdraw from this forum and apologize for trespassing, for I am not exclusively a Sunni.

Merry Christmas one and all

Quote:
Originally Posted by prayerbead
Sure some of the members may not practice Christmas but in the spirit of goodwill toward all (wo)men Merry Christmas.

Same to you. Personally, I do not commemorate anything. (But then, I am something of a recluse.) Every moment is a possibility for celebration if we are awake.

If religions did not exist, would the world have been a less violent and safer place?

In hindsight, religions would not have caused problems if each had not claimed that they alone had the truth.

penguino

Which points out why hindusim is ideal for world peace.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightBlue
Wednesday.Sri Lanka government calls for destruction of Tamil Tigers after deadly bus bombing - International Herald Tribune

A terrorist being identified as member of a certain religious community is one thing and terrorizing in the name of religion is another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roli
I received an email not long ago,as I have friends over seas serving as missionaries and I support a couple other missionaries I hear storeis all the time of hindu's ,Buddist's alike are killing Christians.It's interesting we allow them the freedom and rights to practice their religion here, but over there ,very dangerous, there lives are threatened constantly in all parts of the world by many Eastern religions .I get reports all the time about christians being killed ,children elderly alike

What Christian missionaries coming to India set out to do is to convert Hindus. Hindu swamis go to America and 'convert' Christians. However, the big difference is that the Christian missionaries, in converting the Hindus, seek to instill hatred towards Hinduism in the newly converted whereas all Hindu swamis themselves believe in the message of Christ (to be distinguished, of course, from the message of the Church) and Christ continues to be a part of the religious life of the ‘converted’ Christians. The difference between Missionaries and Swamis is that the former has an exclusivist mindset vis-à-vis religion whereas the mindset of the later is inclusivist. I think the subject of conversion needs to looked at from all angles and therefore I shall be starting a thread on it soon.

roli

I am not sure who you are referring to, but I would question the validity of that person's relationship to Christ if they are in fact instilling hatred in anyone.

I fully agree with you that there is nothing about Christ which is even remotely violent - no, not about a man who said if you are hit on the left cheek, show the right cheek. Its the missionaries, eager to 'harvest', who are the culprits. Even Mother Theresa couldn't resist converting the poor and miserable to Christianity as if charity requires Christ to go with it. Her foremost disciple and now head of the Missionaries of Charities is a convert from a rich Hindu family. In the case of Mother Theresa I cannot (and do not wish to) prove any hate, but please read at the following link, which appeared in a leading Indian newspaper a few days ago.http://www.hindu.com/2007/11/25/stories/2007112559500300.htmThe Mr.Joy referred to in the report is a product of the Pentacost Church's harvest.

If a tree falls down inthe forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

If a tree falls down in the forest and no-one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

When a tree falls down, a man and a dog may hear it differently. Even if the man did not hear it, the dog may have. So the question is, how did it actually sound when the tree fell? The deaf man would see the tree fall without a sound. So what is the truth? Maybe the answer is, there is no truth except as individuals perceive it. Many individuals perceiving a truth similarly would make it possible for the individuals to communicate and function as a community. What we have to discover is under what circumstances would everything in the universe react similarly and under what circumstances would every unit of organism react differently.

A more disturbing question, though, would be - If a tree falls down in the forest and no-one is around to know about it, does it fall at all?

How could Mary have been a virgin?

Was Mary a perpetual virgin?
Most Christians believe that Mary was a virgin at the time of Jesus' birth because the Bible says so. But there is a dispute between the Catholics and Protestants about Mary being a perpetual virgin. They differ on whether Jesus had brothers and sisters.

MidnightBlue

Not just the Roman Catholics, but all the historic churches affirm the perpetual virginity of Mary.

Terrywoodenpic

That is true..However there are many members of those churches who do not believe it to be so.Just because a church has set article of belief does not mean every one believes them.The perpetual virginity is not mentioned in the 39 articles of faith in the Anglican Church.

You cannot prove that God does not exist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rioku
You can not prove that God does not exist!!

We ordinary folks might not be able to prove whether God exists or not. But can't God prove that He exists? God, it appears, has proven to a select few of His existence. The testimony of those chosen few make up the scriptures. Those inspired by the scriptures, in turn, search for the God testified in the scriptures. Many claim to have found such a God. Some have left behind teachings of techniques followed to discover God. Either way, waiting for God to come and prove Himself or undertaking a journey to meet Him, it is always an individual happening. God doesn’t just stand there, like the Himalayas, as proof of Himself. We have to prepare ourselves for the denouement of the greatest spectacle we can imagine - a meeting with God!

Rioku

Well this is confusing for a couple reasons. But yes god can prove he does exist. However if he does then then we fall into a paradox where god told us that he will not prove he exists so once he does he is no longer god.

Important question - please answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palys90
im gay will i ever be accepted by the christian faith?

If you are asking whether you would be permitted membership of an organization - that would depend on the membership rules of the organization. Otherwise, whatever anyone is, faith is a personal matter and there can be no bar to faith for any reason whatsoever.

What do you feel is wrong with Islam?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Z (Muslim)
Bismillah-hir-Rehman-ir-Rahim (In the name of Allah, most gracious, most merciful)Please post your questions or misconceptions you have about Islam. I will Inshallah (which means hopefully) try to clarify. You can also try to prove to me a single thing in Islam which is bad. A single thing. I am just asking for one.

I must congratulate you on your self-confidence in your mastery of Islam so as to be ready to answer any question about Islam. One thing in Islam that is bad is its claim that it alone is the true religion.Will you prove to me a single thing in Islam that is good which has not been said before elsewhere? A single thing.

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Killed for not wearing Hijab
There's this news that a father killed his daughter for not wearing the hijab. Does this count as what is wrong with Islam?Pakistani Canadian kills daughter over hijabToronto: A young Pakistani Canadian girl's refusal to wear the hijab cost her her life. Sixteen-year-old Aqsa Parvez was strangulated by her father Muhammad Parvez in their home in the suburb of Mississauga, police said.Parvez, 57, called the police after the early morning incident on Monday. When police and ambulance reached the two-storey home in suburb, which is dominated by South Asians, they found the girl in an unconscious state. She was rushed to a nearby hospital and later shifted to a hospital in Toronto and put on life support system. But it was of no avail. Aqsa died on Monday night.Parvez was arrested and later remanded to police custody. Aqsa's classmates at the local Applewood Heights Secondary School said the girl had problems with her family for some time as she refused to wear the hijab, the headdress worn by Muslim women in some countries. On her father's insistence, they said, she would wear the hijab while leaving home only to replace it with trendy clothes when she reached school. They recalled how she would sometimes run to the washroom to change into modern dress.The incident has shocked modern Muslims across Canada. Toronto-based Sonia Ahmed, who runs the Miss World Pakistan and grooms Pakistani-origin girls for Miss Bikini and other pageants, said angrily: "The hijab was never a part of Pakistani dress. It is an Arab imposition. This should be banned all over North America. This killer father will now think that he has done the `right thing', and he can now go to heaven and claim his 70 virgins. Hang him." "Ninety-nine percent of our girls want to be free. But because of parental restrictions, they are forced to live dual lives. At home, they live as their parents want. But outside, they have all the fun," Ahmed told IANS.For various reasons, she said, Pakistanis don't want to blend with Indians "whose culture is all dance and song. So they end up with the Arab immigrants. Hence, this Arab culture and hijab among Pakistanis". "But we Pakistanis are South Asians and the South Asian culture is different. Zia-ul Haq started the hijabisation of Pakistan when started his Islamisation drive. He invited Arab Wahabi scholars who married Pakistani women and started the hijab tradition."Ausma Khan, editor-in-chief of Muslim Girl magazine, was also outraged: "It is a tiny minority for whom the hijab is an issue. Many of our readers in the 18-24 age group say hijab is an expression of their personality. It is their choice, not anybody's imposition."Opposing parental impositions on young girls, she said, "I am sure the tragedy will spark a debate on what is wrong with the Muslims and the issues surrounding the hijab. But this tragedy is an example of a cultural and generational conflict."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
So are you implying that Islam permits this. So if Islam does not allow something and people do it can that be considered something in islam. So if Muslims worship Jesus as God is this also Islam? How can something that is not allowed in Islam be considered something wrong with it? Are you saying Islam should allow this injustice?

I understand what you are saying and agree with you. But as a non-Muslim, unless I am given to scholarly studies of Islam, I would naturally see Islam through the actions of its practitioners.

Mujahid Mohammed

How do you look at the Nazi's as Christians or the Branch Davidians. What about the IRA do you look at them as christians. or do you look at the people living in the time of Jesus who walked with him and believed in him as the true christians and examples. If you want the scholarly studies. Here you go Arees Institute This is my teacher, my sheihk. If you are serious contact them, purchase the course and learn our religion. This is what muslims are taught. This is what our scholars teach from our sources, which by the way is common knowledge. For the sources are easily accessible and their are no secrets or hidden meanings or codes. It is what it is. Islam is something defined. That is why the Messenger of Allah forbid us to add or subtract to anything he brought. the definition became sealed and established. Cannot be altered or changed. if it is not something the Messenger of Allah or the companions did. We do not do it. If we understand Quran different then the way they understood it. we are incorrect in belief. If we do things and react to situations in ways other then the way they did it, we will be wrong in our actions. if we it other then their way we are wrong. Like I said. the hadith of Abdullah ibn Masa''ood. A great sahabi told a tabi'een the second best generation, when he himself was from among the best. He said if you want to follow a path. Follow the path of those that are dead. The path of the Messenger of Allah and his companions. for the living of among you may fail in their trials and tests.

Mujahid Mohammed

What kind of sense does that make? so I guess Adolf Hitler is the criterion for measuring christians. Or maybe the actions of this government, Bush, and the UN.

Adolf Hitler did not commit his crimes in the name of Christianity. He was more on to race consciousness and conjured a pure Aryan race and all that. But Osama Bin Laden is doing everything in the name of Islam. He and his Taliban buddies want to create Islamic states with Shariat as the constitution.

MFaraz_Hayat

In Mein Kampf Hitler writes that Jesus "made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross." Hitler rejected the idea of Jesus' redemptive suffering, stating in 1927:"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."I believe that ur statement was wrong.

123

well .....it's not tht u see osama reading out frm the qur'an and shooting people tht u blame him...im in no way for him....but we dont have the proof!!!it's only allegations.......wat is told to u is told by ur media reporters...........have u gone behind the scenes to know who's lying and who's not????tht u make sweeping generalisations....ur writing as if hitler subjected a kind of 'lesser crime' because he didnt read frm the bible before exterminating 6million jews...

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To get the scholarly studies, you need to read to start. Our books and scholarly information is available. You want to talk to a scholar or get the scholarly studies as you say. Here you go. An online islamic university you can attend to learn the religion from scholarly. Arees Institute this is my teacher, contact him if you want to know.

I will take your advice and look up Arees Institute.

The second thing is when someone tells you something then why don't you try accepting it as their truth instead of mixing your own interpretation of the religion. .

You are saying we should not be prejudiced. I entirely agree with you. Nevertheless, if we have doubts, wouldn't we continue questioning?

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Maybe it is unfair to judge a tree by its spoilt fruits but unfortunately it is such fruits (fruitcakes?) that tend to be in the news and catch our attention and make an impression.

Mujahid Mohammed

You are not even looking at the fruit. Are you looking at the Messenger of Allah as the example, His companions or those that Allah said got His religion correct. this is who we as muslims look at as the tree and they are the fruits. For they are what happens when people submit. for they are doing Islam. I am not sure what these suicide bombers and kidnappers are doing, but this is not what Muhammed did.

Muslims today are not the fruits. The companions of the Messenger are the fruits. We are the tainted fruit, for the deviant muslims are adding to the religion, hence why we have sects. Their were no sects with the companions. They were the ones who did it right as I said. the people today are failing in their trials and tests. Not sure why you would use them as the example.

You seem to be saying that except for Mohammad and his companions, it is almost as if Islam has not worked on the rest.

You want a scholarly source yet you always reference the news. I didn't know Bill O'reily and others were scholars on our religion.

Jay

selection bias ...

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Since the topic of this thread is, "What do you feel is wrong with Islam?" and since the annual pilgrimage of Hajj is only a few days away, I may state that it has always baffled me why goats, sheep and camels are sacrificed at the end of Hajj. Commemorating Abraham’s sacrifice is worthy and Allah was mighty pleased with Abraham. But fattening goats and slaughtering it as special ritual is, according to me, a mindless and uncultured act, if by culture we mean the refining of man to greater sensibilities.

The Truth

What's wrong with feeding the poor?

What if poverty is finally alleviated? Would the ritual still be continued?

123

tht is only ur supposition......obviously tht's never gonna happen...poverty is here to stay on this planet until the end of time!!!

How much you seem to be clapping your hands in glee. "Therefore I can have my animal sacrifice till the end of time!!!"
zenzero
Friend Venu,You know very well that anything when it becomes an organistion then egos/minds come into play which is true even for business/ charitable/ etc besides religious.That way one can keep finding faults BUT the question is does that help ME grow to get down deep inside me where the source of life is waiting for me?The question one should ask, what is wrong with ME?Nothing is wrong with you, my friend.Its the MIND each one has that is doing all these tricks.Silence that very MINd and you are HOMe, you are one with everything/existence/nature/god/etc.Love & rgds

Fantastic. I would have offered you all the frubals in the kitty, but I've decided not to touch frubals in the virtual world as I've decided not to touch money in the real world. So I simply want to say you've put in a nutshell all the wisdom of the sages. You are indeed Sage Zenzero.

Peace

The symbolism is in the attitude - a willingness to make sacrifices in our lives in order to stay on the Straight Path. Each of us makes small sacrifices, giving up things that are fun or important to us. A true Muslim, one who submits his or herself completely to the Lord, is willing to follow Allah's commands completely and obediently. It is this strength of heart, purity in faith, and willing obedience that our Lord desires from us.During the celebration of Eid al-Adha, Muslims commemorate and remember Abraham's trials, by themselves slaughtering an animal such as a sheep, camel, or goat. The meat from the sacrifice of Eid al-Adha is mostly given away to others. One-third is eaten by immediate family and relatives, one-third is given away to friends, and one-third is donated to the poor. The act symbolizes our willingness to give up things that are of benefit to us or close to our hearts, in order to follow Allah's commands. It also symbolizes our willingness to give up some of our own bounties, in order to strengthen ties of friendship and help those who are in need. We recognize that all blessings come from Allah, and we should open our hearts and share with others.

123

mr venu gopal i beleive tht ur not informed well.............firstly these animals r in large proportions r given as food to the poor,the underpriviledged.....2.if u stop slaughtering animals this would create a problem for u sir,overpopulation of cattle.i dont get it!! u havent made it clear ..r u against slaughtering any animal or only against many animals........if ur against any animal i could start a veg vs non veg deabte here....but even if u r against a lot of cattle being slaughtered u need to understand tht it is largest gathering of the beleivers(if i cut a goat in my backyard u dont have a problem but if i do it at hajj u have a problem:i beleive with all respects double standards...

Firstly you must thank Allah that there are poor people to absolve you of your guilt of massacre of dumb animals. Secondly, thanks for taking care of the overpopulation of cattle. What about overpopulation of humans? Hajj is not the largest gathering of believers - that credit goes to Kumbh Mela in India, only the believers are Hindus and though 80% of Hindus are meat-eaters, during Kumbh Mela not a single animal sacrifice takes place. There are no double standards. Individuals may be at various levels of evolution and may prefer non-veg to veg. But when we are talking of religions functions, to be not only non-veg, which can be understood because congregations are made up of individuals, but to have a sacred ritual of animal slaughter at sacred Mecca is somewhat unbecoming from the sensibilities point of view.

123

ur logic is relating to the sri sri ravi shankar's termed as 'uttarka' i.e. to define an illogical statement u use reverse logic.............first of all poverty is a human creation....if god gives u a solution ,u blame him for creating a problem he never created!!!!!(it's like ur blaming god for global warming at this pace)

According to you, God's solution for poverty is to slaughter goats during Hajj and distribute 1/3rd of it to the poor.

123

why not?? poverty leads to hunger leads to need of food!!!!ur statement is itself an answer......

'overpopulation of humans'...tht's hilarious.......the exponential rise of humans is not even close to comparison as tht of cattle(who start mating at the age of 2)............

I think by linking the sacrifice of goats commemorating Abraham’s sacrifice to a method of solving the overpopulation of cattle is truly stretching the logic. Is it said in the Quran that Allah intended to do away with excess cattle by this ritual or is it your argument to justify an malevolent and uncompassionate act in the name of a benevolent and compassionate Allah?

why do u say excess cattle????there r excess cattle slaughtered because there r excess people!!simple logic.........i gave u the example where when i cut a goat in my backyard u seem to have no problem ,but when 1 million muslims cut 1 million goats u start crying!!!!!

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when i say largest gathering of beleivers my reference is beleivers of islam..anywaysif u say no animal sacrifice takes place ..well but tht does not deter u frm not eating vegetarian food(my dear even plants cry as they die,even they feel pain)......so it is double standards eventually whether u try to justify animal slaughter in congregations as rit or wrong(tht means i can slaughter a goat when im alone but i cant do it when there r people around me).......

Again the meat eater is justifying his lack of culture (if culture means heightening of sensibilities) when compared to a vegetarian by arguing that vegetables have life. What then is wrong with cannibalism? Nothing, except we would associate such folks with a lack of culture. Though I am not a Jain, I consider their religious practices of not seeking to kill even a fly a culture that is emulation-worthy. One must have humility to accept others can be better than us at least in some ways.

ur logic says tht all lower animals r as superior as us whereas plants r inferior hence can be cut and eaten....i see tht highly pityful...........there is everything wrong with cannibalism.........to begin it is a scientific fact tht the effects of cannibalism r more to do with psychology and changes in the individual.......eating pure cattle meat by all means is permissible.it never has a toll on individual negatively and tht's proven!!!!and there's nothing u can do to prove it false......

huh!!! jainism is all pretentious to say the least!!!!ur changing the words , they dont say u shouldnt harm a fly, but they say they can never harm a fly!!!!!emulation well be my guest i dont have any interet in emulating a hypocritic culture......those fools claim not to eat meat because they say u become wat u eat, u eat animals u become like them!!!i answer them simply alrit we eat all peaceful animals like sheep, cow, goat..all peace loving animals no tigers or lions hence we become wat we eat , we become peace loving!! such foolish is their beleif!!!!!!

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with no offence it is rather bombastic to say to be holy by making the waters unholy!!!!and do very little to reapair tht problem!!

That the waters of Ganges is holy is an article of faith among many Hindus. A harmless article of faith, I would say, when compared to slaughtering cattle in the name of Allah and justifying it as a method of reducing cattle population!

yes indeed polluting the ganges is harmless according to u ,ofcourse thts the logic i expect frm an indu!!!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace
The symbolism is in the attitude - a willingness to make sacrifices in our lives in order to stay on the Straight Path. Each of us makes small sacrifices, giving up things that are fun or important to us. A true Muslim, one who submits his or herself completely to the Lord, is willing to follow Allah's commands completely and obediently. It is this strength of heart, purity in faith, and willing obedience that our Lord desires from us.During the celebration of Eid al-Adha, Muslims commemorate and remember Abraham's trials, by themselves slaughtering an animal such as a sheep, camel, or goat. The meat from the sacrifice of Eid al-Adha is mostly given away to others. One-third is eaten by immediate family and relatives, one-third is given away to friends, and one-third is donated to the poor. The act symbolizes our willingness to give up things that are of benefit to us or close to our hearts, in order to follow Allah's commands. It also symbolizes our willingness to give up some of our own bounties, in order to strengthen ties of friendship and help those who are in need. We recognize that all blessings come from Allah, and we should open our hearts and share with others.

But why do you want to make the poor goat a scapegoat? Why don't you, like Abraham did, prepare to sacrifice your own son (or your neighbour's son!) and see if Allah will sacrifice a goat before you actually get to your sacrifice? I am sorry if my question seems rather abrupt but I am seeking to get to the truth.

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zenzero

Friend Venu,Thanks/no thanks for everything/nothing.Must say that you are very organised and methodical in approach rather your mind is.[eveident from the way you answer each response]. Fantastic qualities there.Can surely vouch that the same qualities used for getting inwards will pay rich dividends.Try it. become a sage yourself.Though am an ordinary being [no sage] am willing to be of any assistance that would be possible in your trails and tribulations. The god in you is just waiting for you my dear friend; please respond to him.Love & rgds

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeyesays
I find NOTHING wrong with the revealed word of God--the Qur'an, nor the Prophet Himself.It is only when men have seen fit to misinterpret the word of God and the teachings of the Prophet for their own purposes that any problem arisers.That said--this is true with all revelaled religion.Regards,Scott

All reading is always an interpretation by the reader. The trouble is when there is something like an official interpretation and we are not allowed to deviate and interpret for ourselves. Official interpretation should be valid only for governmental matters, not for subjective religious matters.